Vintage21 Church

Pastor Tyler · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 93 Location: Downtown Raleigh

By posting this, I am by no means agreeing with all 18 points. Also, this is not directed at any person, group of people or lines of thinking represented by a group of people at Vintage21 Church. I found it very convicting and therefor post worthy. The 18 points were developed by a pastor named Franis Chan....let's start conversating, what do you think?

1. Lukewarm people attend church fairly regularly. It is what is expected of them, what they believe “good Christians” do, so they go. Isaiah 29:13

2. Lukewarm people give money to charity and to the church as long as it doesn’t impinge on their standard of living. If they have a little extra and it is easy and safe to give, they do so, After all, God loves a cheerful giver, right? 1 Chronicles 21:24, Luke 21:1-4

3. Lukewarm people tend to choose what is popular over what is right when they are in conflict. They desire to fit in both at church and outside of church; they care more about what people think of their actions (like church attendance and giving) than what God thinks of their hearts and lives. Luke 6:26, Revelation 3:1, Matthew 23:5-7 4.

4: Lukewarm people don’t really want to be saved from their sin; they want only to be saved from the penalty of their sin. They don’t genuinely hate sin and aren’t truly sorry for it; they’re merely sorry because God is going to punish them. Lukewarm people don’t really believe that this new life Jesus offers is better than the old sinful one. John 10:10, Romans 6:1-2.

5. Lukewarm people are moved by stories of people who do radical things for Christ, yet they do not act. They assume such action is for “extreme” Christians, not average ones. Lukewarm people call “radical” what Jesus expected of all His followers. James 1:22, James 4:17, Matthew 21:28-31

6. Lukewarm people rarely share their faith with their neighbors, coworkers, or friends. They do not want to be rejected, nor do they want to make people uncomfortable by talking about private issues like religion. Matthew 10:32-33

7. Lukewarm people gauge their morality or “goodness” by comparing themselves to the secular world. They feel satisfied that while they aren’t as hard-core for Jesus as so-and-so, they are nowhere as horrible as the guy down the street. Luke 18:11-12

8. Lukewarm people say they love Jesus, and He is, indeed, a part of their lives, their money, and their thoughts, but he isn’t allowed to control their lives. Luke 9:57-62

9. Lukewarm people love God, but they do not love Him all their heart, soul, and strength. They would be quick to assure you they try to love God that much, but that sort of total devotion isn’t really possible for the average person; its only for pastors and missionaries and radicals. Matthew 22:37-38

10. Lukewarm people love others but do not seek to love others as much as they love themselves. Their love for others is typically focused on those who love them in return, like family, friends, and other people they know and connect with. There is a little love left over for those who cannot love them back, much less for those who intentionally slight them, who kids are better athletes than theirs, or with whom conversations are awkward or uncomfortable. Their love is highly conditional and very selective, and generally comes with strings attached. Matthew 5:43-47, Luke 14:12-14

11. Lukewarm people will serve God and others, but there are limits to how far they will go or how much time, money, and energy they are willing to give. Luke 18:21-25

12. Lukewarm people think about life on earth much more often than eternity in heaven. Daily life is mostly focused on today’s to-do list, this week’s schedule, and next month’s vacation. Rarely, if ever do they intently consider the life to come. Philippians 3:18-20

13. Lukewarm people are thankful for their luxuries and comforts, and rarely consider trying to give as much as possible to the poor. Matthew 25:34, 40, Isaiah 58:6-7

14. Lukewarm people do whatever is necessary to keep themselves from feeling too guilty. They want to do the bare minimum, to be “good enough” without requiring too much of them. 1 Chronicles 29:14, Matthew 13:44-46

15. Lukewarm people are continually concerned with playing it safe; they are slaves to the god of control. This focus on safe living keeps them sacrificing and risking for God. Matthew 10:28

16. Lukewarm people feel secure because they attend church, made a profession of faith at age twelve, were baptized, come from a Christian family, vote Republican, or live in America.

17. Luke warm people do not live by faith; their lives are structured so they never have to. They don’t have to trust God if something unexpected happens-they have their savings account. They don’t need God to help them—they have their retirement plan in place. They don’t genuinely seek out what life God would have them live—they have life figured and mapped out. They don’t depend on God on a daily basis-their refrigerators are full and, for the most part, they are in good health. The truth is, their lives wouldn’t look much different if they suddenly stopped believing in God. Luke 12:16-21

18. Lukewarm people probably drink and swear less than average, but besides that, they really aren’t very different from your typical unbeliever. They equate their partially sanitized lives with holiness, but they couldn’t be more wrong. Matthew 23:25-28, Luke 14:34-35
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Pastor Tyler

Sharon Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 28

Pastor Tyler · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 93 Location: Downtown Raleigh

Sharon, I think that is a great point--we all drag through these phases at some point(s) in our relationship with Jesus. So, what things/ways/disciplines/truths help you pursue Jesus with passion? How do we continue to place ourselves under the authority of Jesus?
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Pastor Tyler

Pastor Matt · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 31 Location: Raleigh, NC

Sharon, I agree with your thought here-

Eric Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 56

So the great problem is that "lukewarm" is a spot on a sliding scale. Sharon and I give money to the church, and we'd sure be better off financially if we didn't. But the Franciscan order makes us look positively wealthy. So do we give faithfully, or out of our excess?

I try to share my faith with people. At the same time, I never know whether when I choose to remain silent it's because I don't want to be the obnoxious in-your-face kind of guy who can do more harm than good, or because I'm afraid of social consequence.

Now, none of this bothers me, particularly. I don't lose sleep at night worrying about these things, but the fact is that "good enough" is located at a nigh-infinite distance. So if "lukewarm" is the location before "good enough" then we're all lukewarm or worse. This is clearly reflected in the fact that really none of the eighteen points are things only lukewarm people do - people who are fully warm (well done? medium rare? whatever that is) go to church, give money, help people, etc, etc. What they do differently is, essentially, to do these things better. And you can ALWAYS do things better.

Given that, I find it's best to concentrate on doing, now, what God wants, and let Jesus take care of yesterday.

Amy Crouch · Joined: 26 Mar 2008 Posts: 20

I think what convicts me most about these statements, and what I see most in the people that they describe (including myself) is that the motivation of why people "act" anything in Christianity is skewed.

Sharon, I agree with your thoughts on the elders and priests in saying that they are not under the authority of Jesus. They see him as a good teacher, probably at their level, but nothing above them. But when we ask about the authority of Christ, and what it really is, I think that we are all forced to admit a very hard truth: the authority of Christ is to be the overpowering reason that we perform any action as a believer.

I tend to live my life on a very works-based salvation and struggle exceedingly with "doing good things". I am passionate and willing to devote myself fully to a cause. The elders and priests were willing to do this as well (or else they wouldn't be following over 600 laws set before them!) However, Christ didn't challenge them in what they DID--he challenged them in why they were doing what they did. If they really put Jesus above them, where he belongs, they would have had to follow something that seems (in a sense) not quite as "worthy" as what they were doing.

Our motivations to be passionate about a cause MUST be led be a passion for Christ--not a passion for people, law, or ourselves. Many do not follow the radical nature of Christ because they are able to somehow find a loophole in their priorities, making it almost logical to not be giving as much as Christ asks: children must go to college, neighbors have to hear before the rest of the world, my family must be fed as well. But how many of us ask the question "are we glorifying the Lord" when we put food on the tables for our families or money in the bank for our children? If they (we) were truly trusting the Lord's authority we would not have to question the things that he asks but simply do them--willing or not, because we are obedient.

Question:
Does being "lukewarm" in any way put to unrest the assurance of our salvation? When God says that He will "spit them out" does that mean of His hand entirely, or just out of His blessings?

Rob Davis · Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 90 Location: Raleigh, NC

ljoy · Joined: 04 Mar 2008 Posts: 5

My first reaction might be to read the 18 points and say, "Good thing I am not just going through the motions with a selfish intention. Good thing I am so good. Those sad lukewarm souls." But seriously! Who am I kidding? That really only confirms an arrogant heart towards the Lord.
If I think that I am already living with all the passion possible through the Grace of God, I would have just made the Grace into a pathetically small token. Out of a contrite, thankful, humble, heart I should stay in the tension (as Rob referred to) of recognizing how small and far I am from the fullness of God but not out of the scared sort of fear.
Regular repentance, if not done out of a desire to just cover my behind but rather out of a sincere humility before the Grace of God, does remind and challenge me that there is always more of God I am reaching for, and less of me that I want.

Like Eric said, there are always more and better things that we can do. Not out of an earning mindset, or a good-works-to-save-my-soul intention, but out of wanting to give back the love I have learned from being loved by God.

it is so good to be reminded how lukewarm my heart still is at times, because it makes me get on my knees and seek the Lord.

joshisbrown · Joined: 15 Jul 2008 Posts: 3

hey,

is the sermon from this sunday going to be posted on the vintage website? hearing them on-line really helps me for study/community group purposes. thanks

Pastor Matt · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 31 Location: Raleigh, NC

The sermon will be posted, but we've run into some technical difficulties. We'll post when we get it up and running again!

thanks, and I'm glad it's helpful!
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Matt Stevens
Worship Pastor
Vintage21 Church