Vintage21 Church

tara · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 3

I have been attending services at Vintage for a couple months now. I love the focus on cultural relevance, love for downtown Raleigh and the grassroots feel to sharing Jesus. I look forward to getting more involved and pursuing ownership next semester when I am back in Raleigh full time. Also, I love Vintage's idea of creating a forum for discussion via this website. Finally, I really admire Vintage's effort towards evaluation in the Year of Health. To me, it shows great courage and sincere faith on the leaders' parts.

That being said, the changes to the worship style last week were disappointing to my personal tastes. I respect and welcome the idea to discontinue reflection time after the message if that is truly a way the church can better nurture its worshipers or reach more folks. However, I must admit the loss of reflection time is a loss to my personal worship at Vintage. In fact, the reflection time was one of the main things that originally drew me to Vintage--it was a refreshing divergence from worship services I had been to at other churches. But it was more than that--it was quiet time in which I felt closest to God during the whole worship service, as I quietly internalized the message I had just received and prayed about what implications the message held for my life. It was also a great time of contemplation and quiet before receiving communion. I loved the provided questions to get me thinking about practical application of the message I had just heard. The reflection time was anything but a 'downer' to me, it was actually my favorite and most stirring part of the service to me.

I asked a few folks I've been attending Vintage with and they expressed the same thoughts as I have. Also, we shared how the new style of going straight into praise after the message was a style we had seen at many other churches. We were sad to see this refreshing practice that originally drew us into Vintage go. I understand that the need to change for the better extends beyond my (and a couple of my friends') personal worship-style preferences but I thought I'd share my thoughts. Again, I respect and welcome this initiative if it is truly a way to better reach folks at Vintage and beyond.

Thanks for the chance to share via this website. Looking forward to becoming more involved next fall!

Greg Wilson · Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 2 Location: Raleigh NC

I am sure there is a reason for it....but I have to agree that losing the reflection portion of the service seems counter productive praying to God about the service or anything else. The quiet of the reflective time for a few minutes seems to flow much better than what is currently the process. I enjoyed the quiet minutes of reflective time, but also like to fully praise God with song along with the awesome band we have each week, You need to think about changing it back. :wink:
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Gregory K. Wilson

Whitney Chambers · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 21

I don't like to dismiss changes out-of-hand and without considering them. But I feel much the same as Tara. I miss reflection time.

I can understand the reasoning behind making a change. I just don't see how giving reflection time the ax is going to help us focus our hearts on worshiping God.

It seems that we let our self-consciousness and pride (at least in the way of not wanting to look foolish) keep us from "letting loose" in our worship. I don't think reflection time was a downer to that end.
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Interested in the prayer ministry? Email me: prayer at vintage21 dot com!

Curt Hamilton · Joined: 13 Feb 2008 Posts: 13

There's been some discussion about the reflection time change over at this thread:

http://vintage21.netfreehost.com/viewtopic.php?t=103

Pastor Tyler · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 80 Location: Downtown Raleigh

Folks...change is hard, I know this well. However, this change is needed. Please read Matt's explanation, that Curt posted above this post, and then if you still have questions let's meet. Thanks. We love you guys.
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Pastor Tyler

Whitney Chambers · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 21

Thanks for the link to the other thread. I had no idea it existed! But it was so helpful.

To Matt: Wow, that was a good explanation, man! Pretty much all I needed to understand the decision, in fact. Awesome! And praise God for the discernment He's given.

As for the other responses, I appreciated a lot of the thoughts and questions other people had. I'm glad this forum is allowing these explorations, and God is certainly big enough to handle all of our wonderings.

Here's something that has been stuck in my consciousness for a little while. It's EASY--way too easy--for me to assume the decisions made by the elders of our church are "off" somehow. Like they don't have their fingers on the pulse of "the people." Like they're so out of touch or something.

I have to actively fight this. When I think this, it's generally because I've become too prideful in my own perspective. As if I would have all of the answers. But God reminds me that He has picked out people to lead. He hasn't given them all of the answers either, but He does clue them into certain things at certain time all according to His ways and plans. And I consider it a test of my faithfulness to God as to whether or not I can be led by someone He has chosen.

Eldership is NOT an easy role to take on and commit to. Do we trust our elders as being the guys God has chosen to lead and govern our church? That's the real question I think I'm struggling with when I feel initial resistance to a new or recent decision. I pray about this often--where does my trust lie. It's easy for it to waver as it's being built into something more firm.

And it can be hard to trust. Especially if you don't feel like you know the people you're supposed to be trusting. Many of our church's congregation has probably not had the chance to sit down and talk to Tyler, Matt, and/or Nate. And since they're only three guys--who can only do so many things each day--it's not likely that they can "get to everybody" and also do all the other things God has put in front of them to do. So with the constraints of time and space that God has placed on this situation, what do you think He has in mind for overcoming this obstacle of trusting? Ask Him. No, really, ask Him. I won't pretend to have that answer for everyone, but I know the One who does, so I point you there.

Like Will, I don't think it's wrong to ask questions. But I also don't think the elders are saying "no questions allowed"--they often say the opposite. So, people of the congregation, let's ask our questions with as much wisdom and love as we can and prayerfully consider the times and ways we ask. And nobody should feel like we're getting all out of control or planning a mutiny if questions are raised. We're a little like lost sheep sometimes and just need some prodding with a staff to move where we're being led.

Basically, Vintage21 is God's church. It's been given to us, entrusted to us by God. He makes some among us become governors of it (elders). He prods others to really be the nuts-and-bolts (owners). And some He brings to watch His mechanism do its thing (doubters, seekers, followers who will go on to own some other church).

Is the issue of reflection time really the crux of the matter? No. But it is a helpful point of relevance to the larger ideas I feel like I struggle with a lot. I feel VERY VERY blessed by God's command to me that I commit to Vintage21. I don't commit to owning this church because I love it all of the time. I don't commit to owning it because I feel that it loves me all of the time. I commit to it because God tells me to. And until He says otherwise, I'm going to do all I can to obey that command.
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Interested in the prayer ministry? Email me: prayer at vintage21 dot com!

Greg Wilson · Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 2 Location: Raleigh NC

For me change is not hard....Flexibility is a way of life. Things change fast these days.. I accept that the change is best for Vintage 21 at this time, and don't think it is terrible. All I am saying is that I personally prefer the reflection set up. It is important to talk about and challenge things so we can grow spiritualy and as people. At the end of the day it is what it is, and it is a small factor when it comes to our journey to know God, and getting the triangle and the world to know God. God has blessed us with an awesome place to worship in Vintage 21 and he has blessed with the ability to challenge or discuss things that happen at OUR church.
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Gregory K. Wilson

Lauren Autore · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 6 Location: Raleigh

Whitney,
Great thoughts.
Thanks.