Vintage21 Church

bredelings · Joined: 18 Mar 2008 Posts: 20 Location: Raleigh

Hey Matt,

Thanks for sharing that with us! I'm glad I know more of what was on your mind, and I've been thinking about whether my praise really lives up to (say) the Psalms. Can you bear with me as I ask some clarifying questions to try to understand where you're coming from?

tara · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 3

Too much posting by me but I wanted to really encourage and express my thanks to Matt and all the folks at Vintage for taking 'appropriate worship' so seriously. Praise was amazing today and I was very encouraged, even without beloved reflection time! the idea of immediate response and reflection later is making more sense to me. keep up the hard work, it is much appreciated by me and im sure many others.

no more blogging for me for awhile (reference to Tyler's message today...)

Pastor Tyler · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 80 Location: Downtown Raleigh

I love bloggers...
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Pastor Tyler

Joe Puckett · Joined: 04 Apr 2008 Posts: 4 Location: Raleigh, NC

Matt mentioned that, "Response in worship is when we pour out- it’s an outward action, and not an inward introspection." I can't help but think that maybe the reason for the lack of response is because the preparation during the week is lacking. What I mean is, if we are all studying scripture and praying on our own regularly during the week, and not depending on the Sunday service and/or home group for our spiritual growth then Sunday worship would be very different. There is the analogy that Sunday service is like a huge potluck dinner. Everyone prepares something throughout the week, and we come together and share a wonderful feast! But if, we as a church are only spending time with God on Sunday and Home Groups, then of course Sunday Potluck feast is going to have slim pickings. I think Tyler hit this one head on a couple months back at owner’s night when he asked us the question, “Why do we not thirst for God?” I am praying we get our thirst back, and I will be the first to admit that it isn’t easy to find time, we are all very busy. But, I think we have time for what we make time for, so whatever is a priority in our lives we will make that thing happen.
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Joe Puckett

Pastor Matt · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 33 Location: Raleigh, NC

Ben, and the congregation of Vintage21 Church,

Great question- What counts as response?
When I wrote that there is a lack of response, it was mainly in reference to Sunday morning. As a follower of Christ, we should live lives of constant response to the Holy Spirit within us, the message of the Gospel, the beauty of God's creation, the love in our life, the common grace we see all around us, and so on- the evidence of a loving Creator is everywhere. Due to our sinful nature, we constantly struggle with this and grow weary, depressed, or angry. This is often due to a lack of perspective- as Joe mentioned in the post above, there is no spiritual discipline, no growth or time with Christ outside of Sunday morning. We are not responding to God because we've taken our focus from Him. One benefit of gathering together is to encourage one another of the confidence we have in our great high priest, Jesus (Heb. 10:19-25). Over the years I've been convicted in our times of corporate worship (the worship of the body of Christ, in our case- the Sunday service), and have sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is a large reason we moved away from the style of worship songs we used to do- using secular songs to worship to God. While I maintain that it was worship during that time, and have evidence in my heart of the movement of the Spirit and glory to God, it seemed as if God was drawing us to love scripture more and more, and to sing of the depths of His love and holiness. These can best be found in hymns of rich language that speak reverently and poetically of Christ's propitiation. It's also found in the songs God inspires in our church here and now, that are exactly where we are, and most often come from scripture.
However, in the past 6 months to a year, I realized what we were singing, and what Pastor Tyler preached, and saw a disconnect between what was presented and the response. It's as if I gave my nephew a candy bar. He would be happy, and thankful, but the gift has a short bearing on his life. Nor do I expect him to be jumping for joy. But say I bought the house behind his, leveled it, and built a professional baseball diamond for he and his friends to play on. My nephew loves baseball, so an appropriate response would be for him to absolutely flip out- scream and yell and hug me and run around and whoop and holler until his throat hurt.
I feel as if God built us a "baseball diamond" and we respond as if he's bought us a candy bar. That's what I mean when I wrote "a lack of response to who God is and what He has done". Obviously, this is an analogy, so please take it for what it's worth.
In regards to your question- "What counts as response?" I don't mean to imply that a sincere time reflecting upon God's word is not a worshipful response. Just like I don't mean to imply that there are people who have not responded appropriately in our time of worshipful singing. However, as I've observed, led and been a part of roughly 500 worship services at Vintage21 Church, it's both visible and felt. I see numerous people standing with arms crossed. I see 15 people out of 250 clapping, 5 out of 250 with arms raised. I hear voices that are not crying out, praising from their depths, but merely singing words. And I feel it in my soul. There have been times where the Holy Spirit just convicts me that we are not worshiping. And that is inappropriate. When we sing of the death of God's Son on our behalf, and our response is halfhearted singing in which our minds and hearts are on those around us or dinner afterwards or what the lead guitarist is doing- that's like yawning in God's face. Arguably like spitting on Jesus as He suffers on the cross.

Ben, you also had a question about this sentence-

Eric Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 49

Pastor Matt · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 33 Location: Raleigh, NC

Eric,

I understand your concerns, and hopefully can address them sufficiently here.

First, I’d like to ask everyone to remember that we don’t do a huge production at Vintage21 with moving lights, smoke machines, etc. From day one, we could have sought to go this route, but we decided to focus everything on worshiping from sincere hearts. Please do not misinterpret that last sentence- I’m not saying that churches who have moving lights and smoke machines do not honor Christ. In fact, my goal with this post, and all previous posts in this thread, was to ensure that I’m not laying out blanket statements, but instead taking examples on a case-by-case basis. My point here is that we’re not concerned with an outward appearance- if so I wouldn’t have had that mustache for three months! I’m not looking at any one person and judging whether or not they should clap or lift their hands. However, when I study scripture, in the Psalms, Nehemiah, Revelation and elsewhere there is a passionate response that clearly displays these people love God and are responding in thankfulness. There is a distinct contrast between worship in Scripture and that of a Sunday service at Vintage21. My point in mentioning 15 out of 250 people clapping is not that there is a certain number we should achieve. It’s only this- could it really be that out of 250 people, only 15 desire to clap along, to move their bodies? Could that really be? I find it hard to believe that there are only 15 people who want to clap, or 5 who want to lift their hands. Of all the people who follow Jesus and know the saving grace of God, could it really be that hundreds just don’t express themselves that way, that it’s just not their style or personality? I think the reality is, some people are holding back. I’m calling us out, challenging everyone to pray as David prayed- “Prove me, O Lord, and try me; test my heart and my mind.” Psalm 26:2

As I mentioned, God is working in me, challenging me with this, which is why I’m asking everyone to examine themselves, and ask God to lead them in worship. I do not want to walk into Vintage21 next week and see 250 raising their hands, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. And so I’m asking that everyone pray, and ask God to reveal any pride or fear or laziness that is keeping them from worshiping Him appropriately. I’ve seen over and over in Proverbs that wisdom comes from God (2:6, 3:7, 8,) and that we are to humbly seek counsel, wisdom and advice (9:9, 10:8, 10:17, 12:15).
My posts thus far have been a call to seek wisdom from God.

Eric, I’d like to repost the 2nd quote in context-

Eric Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 49

Thanks for clarifying. That makes a lot of sense.

Paige Puckett · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 5 Location: Raleigh, NC

God has gifted us with an opportunity for corporate worship on Sundays where as one body we lift up his name. Worship isn’t about how or what or where but WHO. Whom do we worship? I think Matt is feeling that the WHO is lacking from worship because we let the how, what, and where become central. We begin to worship the idea of worship rather than its object – Jesus Christ. So when worship doesn’t look and feel just right, our hearts are lacking. The thing is, Jesus Christ is just right, and if he is our true focus of worship, all else fades.

While we could easily go on debating the proper methods of worship for days, I feel perhaps the best course of action is to follow Matt’s words PRAY. Pray that Jesus would truly be the object of our affection and that we’d be willing to give everything over in effort to worship him fully. I trust Matt’s convictions that there is a lack of sincerity and fervor, and I will be the first to confess I have my personal list of things that hold me back: laziness, lack of familiarity with the tunes and words, dislike of the tunes or words, awkwardness, distractions of busyness and thoughts, arrogance, lack of individual worship during the week. I will this week begin to pray through each of these items that God would begin to break them down for me and reveal any others.

erika lizotte · Joined: 14 Feb 2008 Posts: 2

I am hearing from many people a desire to still have a time of introspection in our Sunday service. Yes introspection is a part of following Christ—revealing the true darkness of my heart and allowing the Holy Spirit to change my heart. I don’t see that our church leadership is trying to negate that. Our leadership is finding that we do it inappropriately. One of Pastor Matt’s main points is that

Eric Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 49

Will McMillian · Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 2

Pastor Nate · Joined: 25 Jan 2008 Posts: 18 Location: Raleigh, NC

Folks, thank you for thinking through this question on the forum. Matt has done a thorough job responding, and I urge you to re-read through his explanations if necessary. If you have any more questions about this, feel free to shoot an email to pastors@vintage21.com.