Vintage21 Church

Pastor Tyler · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 80 Location: Downtown Raleigh

This week, we will continue to study the gifts of the Spirit. Our focus in the second of three weeks, will be primarily on the "super-natural gifts of the Spirit" --I Corinthians 12:8-10. Please take a minute to read or re-read this passage (www.esv.org).

I have had a long history with the Spiritual Gifts. I came to know Jesus in a charismatic church that practiced some of the "controversial gifts of the Spirit" such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and at times "slain in the spirit." In college, I rebelled against this and became a full blown cessationist (the belief that the miraculous gifts such as healing, tongues, prophetic revelation, and supernatural knowledge pertained to the apostolic era only, served a purpose that was unique to the era before the New Testament was complete, and passed from use before the canon of Scripture was closed). Finally, in my mid-twenties I realized that we cannot put God in a box as truly, God can do anything He wants to do.

My history has brought me some great experience/understanding with the gifts and some pretty heavy baggage. I saw a healthy, Jesus centered church, split 3 times because the "super-natural gifts of the Spirit" were abused and no one would lead through it. So, what is your history with Spiritual Gifts?[/i]
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Pastor Tyler

Eric Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 49

I went to a church where we joked that the Holy Spirit was the senior pastor's least favorite member of the Trinity. Then my mother became a charismatic. Since then I've encountered a lot of stuff that makes be believe that God still works quite powerfully in the world. I've also encountered a feeling that if God is doing things you don't need to think, which results in some incredibly dangerous practices.

amyc · Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Raleigh, NC

i can't really comment on my history with spiritual gifts, except that a lady in my home methodist church was rumored to be gifted with speaking in tongues and everyone thought she was just acting, and a lot of gossip ensued. i'm not sure what i think about her, or fully understand the gift of speaking in tongues, but i don't think that's really important to my moving forward on this mission.

i struggle with vs 22-24, 22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty, 24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it,

the explanation tyler used makes a lot of sense - that we wouldn't force someone not gifted speaking up front to give a talk, or ask an extreme introvert to be a greeter. but i don't understand why Paul talks about it in terms of covering up unpresentable parts & modesty (in ESV and NIV, the word modesty is used to describe how we treat those unpresentable parts. "kosmios" - well arranged, seemly, modest). in the church, who does Paul mean are the unpresentable parts? the volunteers who clean the bathrooms? or is it followers who are struggling with sin? Are verses 22-24 just making the point that we should help each other function perfectly in our roles (by honoring & respecting each other no matter what ministry they are involved in)?

barclay makes 3 points about this section that are worth pasting:

(i) We ought to realize that we need each other. There can be no such thing as isolation in the Church. Far too often people in the Church become so engrossed in the bit of the work that they are doing and so convinced of its supreme importance that they neglect or even criticize others who have chosen to do other work. If the Church is to be a healthy body, we need the work that everyone can do.

(ii) We ought to respect each other. In the body there is no question of relative importances. If any limb or any organ ceases to function, the whole body is thrown out of gear. It is so with the Church. "All service ranks the same with God." Whenever we begin to think about our own importance in the Christian Church, the possibility of really Christian work is gone.

(iii) We ought to sympathize with each other. If any one part of the body is affected, all the others suffer in sympathy because they cannot help it. The Church is a whole. The person who cannot see beyond his or her own organization, the person who cannot see beyond his or her congregation, worse still, the person who cannot see beyond his or her own family circle, has not even begun to grasp the real unity of the Church.
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amy c.

Eric Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 49

I meant to ask something about "paraclete". But first, I'd like to say I thought the sermon was really good.

Anyway, when you (Tyler) said that "paraclete" referred to a veteran soldier who helped out with morale among the rookies is that the only use, or is that one end of a spectrum which encompasses a number of advisory roles? Just curious.

ljoy · Joined: 04 Mar 2008 Posts: 5

Because the Holy Spirit is given to us through our baptism in Christ, no matter what I am used to, comfortable with, or have been confused by before; I must wrestle with how the Spirit continues to live through us today.
Our very tangible human bodies seem to discount the Spirit (like eric said, "he is less famous"), due to the fear of the unknown, the 'spooky' spiritual realm, or perhaps fear of how my life would look if I let the Spirit lead my steps.
At this point in the mission, it need not matter what I feel comfortable with or what I, in my small human mind, can understand in so many words. The Spirit is still with us because Christ said He would be with us.
The Scriptural explanations of how the Spirit gifts, leads, and performs supernatural workings is a subject I strive to understand, but to think that I could have a good working definition of the fullness of the Spirit would be too quick an assumption on my part. This is not discounting reason and logic, but I would venture to say that no extent of my language could define the perimeters of the supernatural workings of the Spirit because God has no perimeters and my language is way too small.

My heart grieves at how so many Christians are hesitant to say that prophesy, speaking in tongues, healings, deliverance, etc. are part of today's church. Many Christians seem OK with the idea that someone would have a gifting in leadership, teaching or administration, but the more 'supernatural' giftings seem to be shoved aside because perhaps they are harder to define. If I let myself define the Spirit based on what makes me comfortable and not what Scripture teaches me, I am in danger of creating a milk-toast faith that is easily affected by the continuous temptation to think there are limits to God's power.

The Spirit is my link to what God is making known to Christ (John 14-16). This is a tap with which I need to be connected.

Rob Davis · Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 85 Location: Raleigh, NC

This is not to excuse a resistance toward the mysterious, but there are limits to how things are to be done. Several times Paul tells us "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace," and, "all things should be done decently and in order" (1 Corinthians 14). I don't want to attempt here to define what those limits/boundaries are, but somehow that has to be factored in. My own hesitancy, I'm sure, comes from the environment I grew up in, where the mysterious spiritual aspects of God were so stressed that many other important things were simply unimportant.
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Pastor Tyler · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 80 Location: Downtown Raleigh

Eric this is a great question:

Eric Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 49

Pastor Tyler · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 80 Location: Downtown Raleigh

Amy --a point of clarity might help us see that Paul is not belittling anyone or any gift. I tried to make this difference in changing my focus from gifts to people in my sermon, but certainly I could have done a better job.

It is important to note that I Corinthians 12:15-19 deal with gifts and v. 20-25 deal with people (Gordon Fee, NICNT p. 617). Paul makes this difference so:

a) we know there is no gift less important or less needed
b) we give honor, attention, care, mercy to the people (v. 20-25) who may be wounded, hurt or in need.

Does that make sense?
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Pastor Tyler

amyc · Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Raleigh, NC

Yes.... I think your point B is part of what I was looking for & confused about. Before this study I focused more on the "wounded, hurt, & in need" people outside the church, but Paul is pointing out that we should be just as attentive to the other parts of Christ's body. A reminder I definitely needed.

Unfortunately I still don't understand how Paul's metaphor of modesty and covering up unpresentable parts is appropriate. I'm still looking...
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amy c.

AJD · Joined: 21 Jul 2008 Posts: 1

my history with spiritual gifts includes 5 years attending Brownsville Assembly of God during the "infamous" revival that happened there, to cessasionist baptist churches. to say that i've seen some wacky stuff would be an understatement.

looking back i've found that churches that focus heavily on spiritual gifts are rife with extrabiblical teachings or outright heresy. confusion and condemnation are the norm. Paul made it very clear that "The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets" (1 Cor 14:32). All of 1 Cor 14 gives the outline for how gifts of the spirit (namely prophecy and tongues) should work in the church, but most "revival" oriented churches choose to ignore this passage.

nevertheless, the gifts of the spirit are real and for us today, and it's unfortunate that the many "snake handlers" and televangelist false prophets are what give most people their impressions of the gifts.