Vintage21 Church

Rob Davis · Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 90 Location: Raleigh, NC

Hey people. Just wanted to let you know that I feel pretty overwhelmed with the amount of stuff I could present to you in the third and fourth weeks of the gospel class. That said, I am making a commitment to blog some of the things that I'd like to spend time on in that class, but it just won't be possible to hit it all. I'd love to get some interaction going around the thoughts I'll be posting.

Earlier today I posted some thoughts on the Kingdom of God here:
http://v21missionality.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/the-kingdom-of-god-is-at-hand/
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http://inandfor.wordpress.com

ryaneves · Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 1 Location: North Raleigh

So I had some thoughts about this last night but wanted to let them sit before speaking on them.

We talked last night about whether sin came into the world because we chose death over life or whether we chose our will over God's. To me, Adam and Eve (and now we have) chosen our will over God's. The option was always there to either eat of the tree of life or not. Adam and Eve could have chosen between life and death but for one issue: they had no knowledge of life and death because they had not eaten of the tree of knowledge. This only works of course if you look at death as evil and life as good (which I think most of us would agree with).

So, to me, it seems that Eve and then Adam chose their own will over God's and this led to Sin which then led to death.

In my mind (and heart for that matter) God gave us free will because it means so much more to willingly follow something, to choose it above and beyond other things. It's the flip side of the coin we spoke of last night where God created us even though He knew we would fail because it would mean He could pursue us and show us the extent of His perfect love. We both get to feel this pursuit and pursue Him ourselves.

Any and all comments would be welcome. Hopefully that made some sense...

Ryan
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Ryan Eves

"Love is the province of the brave"

Rob Davis · Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 90 Location: Raleigh, NC

Seanette · Joined: 23 Apr 2008 Posts: 1

Okay, so I'm trying to wrap my little bitty head around some aspects that have been confusing me during the discussion of sin and Genesis during the Gospel class.

I can't figure out if sin was the plan or if sin was chosen. Rob, you gave an example that when you have kids you're taking a chance because they could possibly betray you. So was God taking a chance? If God was taking a chance, was our (Adam and Eve's) betrayal already woven throughout His plan?

Someone also mentioned that God intended on bringing glory to Himself through brokenness and suffering. If this is true, was our betrayal of Him really plan B or was there only one plan to begin with? Did God really intend for Adam and Eve to stay naked, unashamed, and in perfect communion with God at all times in the garden or was His intent what really occurred? If God is all-knowing and bigger than our three-dimensional selves...even beyond and outside of time, it seems as if it would have all been His plan to begin with. If so, would Adam and Even not have brought enough glory to Him as they were in the garden? Or did suffering and betrayal have to happen in order for God to receive all glory? (Which we fall short of on a daily basis...)

I've always been one to not question things...but as I read through my Bible that I've had since the fourth grade, it is strewn with question marks of my earlier days...some I can certainly make sense of now, others I still have no answer to. I'm tired of being okay with that...so hopefully all the above question marks are well interpreted. Thanks guys... :D

(emoticons!)

Seanette

Rob Davis · Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 90 Location: Raleigh, NC

Hao · Joined: 29 Feb 2008 Posts: 29

thanks Rob. I didn't mean to throw up a confusing idea of Plan A and B in class but I think you clarified it well in your post. I was trying to explain what some think of as the "ideal world" (Plan A) and what has happened (Plan B).

In very few and confusing words, I was just trying to make this point: God loves Himself and I believe created us for the purpose glorifying God and sharing in His complete and utter joy.

I'll try to break this down a little bit. John Piper in The Pleasures of God: Meditations on God's Delight in Being God quotes Henry Scougal in saying that "the worth and excellency of a soul is to be measured by the object of its love." For God to be God, He must love Himself fully or as Piper puts it, God is most satisfied in God. It was complete and He did not need us.

However, He created us to share in His glory by us glorifying God. We got to share in His love for Himself! But we failed horribly at it and still do. Yet the crazy completely mind-blowing thing is that God loved us so much as to create us, watch us blow it, and then redeem us through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Put it another way: God pursued us, and removed us from our self-given depravity even though He didn't have to or need us. Why? Because He is God and He loves us (Romans 5:8 ).

I believe this is THE PLAN for our creation. To show us the fullness of His glory through Jesus that we might willfully submit ourselves to His love that was ours from the beginning. I would hesitate to use the word "risk" as it can imply that He wasn't in control. I'm in the camp with Rob that God determines the future.

Therefore, we are very much in the Plan now. Which is why He very much deserves everything we've got. This is the primary purpose of teaching this class: to show God's intricate and determined plan throughout the Bible and in our lives today. Let's now respond appropriately.