Vintage21 Church

Pastor Tyler · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 93 Location: Downtown Raleigh

Well, we have come to the hardest portion of I Corinthians and maybe the hardest text, in the New Testament, for our culture. Many, many Christians agree on 99% of theology but differ deeply on this passage. It can cause hardship and even divisions in a local church.

We have not pounded this topic for a very specific reason --Jesus is the main thing, He is the thing that we want to focus on again and again and again. However, this is a very important passage as it: teaches us about the Trinity, shows us the order of creation, and very honestly lays out the difference between individual freedom & relational responsibility.

Honestly, I would love to skip this passage and just move to the spiritual gifts portion of the text. Yet, I believe that all Scripture is from God, for us and our goal must be to study it and follow it with our lives. So we open up a can and pray that God has His way.

I ask 4 things of you this week:
1) Pray for the church as we try to be honest with Scripture
2) Read and study the passage before you come
3) Pursue the Elders and Deacons if you need too
4) Center your life in Jesus and give yourself radically to Him as this is truly the MAIN THING.

Here is the passage:
I Cor 11:2-16
Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife [1] is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife [2] who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head. 7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. [3] 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12 for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.
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Pastor Tyler

TheMrs · Joined: 04 Mar 2008 Posts: 8 Location: Downtown Raleigh

Excellent excellent excellent talk Tyler. It was evident that you prayed and studied hard for this week's talk and I just want to say thanks! One thing that was sort of a light bulb moment for me in the whole discussion of roles is not that women are incapable of taking on the roles God has called men to play, but that Jesus is asking that we sacrifice in order for men to be used. If we are to follow Jesus in this it makes total sense: He was called to die on the cross. Of course he had the ability and the knowledge to save himself, but he chose to die to his desires so that we might live.

Certainly there are times when it might seem easier for me to do this or take the lead here and there and that is ok sometimes. But if I am choosing my ability over my husband's call then we both suffer for it. I think it became clearer to me yesterday than it ever has. God has created women with intelligence, strength and ability and we certainly can lead, but how much greater is our call to submit to God's purpose? It is a life lesson in trusting God ultimately. If we only trust in our own abilities, we are cutting off a great blessing.
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*Andrea*

Pastor Nate · Joined: 25 Jan 2008 Posts: 18 Location: Raleigh, NC

"... it is not that women are incapable of taking on the roles God has called men to play, but that Jesus is asking that we sacrifice in order for men to be used..."

Andrea, that statement is brilliant.

Pastor Tyler · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 93 Location: Downtown Raleigh

Folks, I know yesterday's sermon was rather challenging. Many of you are asking for more information so, here is what I would recommend as a beginning:

Lectures

The following link will take you to the website of Redeemer Church in New York City. I would recommend you buy and download the first 4 talks listed on this site. They are excellent and will provide you with more content on this topic.

1) The Bible Texts
2) Objections to the Objections
3) Moving forward positively
4) Gender Roles

Redeemer Sermon Store

Books

I think it is important to say 2 things about the recommendation of books:

1) The Bible has to be our primary text. Please study the Bible and study it well. If you were not at Owner’s night in March, please go online, download the talk and give it a listen. The notes from the talk are posted on the V21 forum and will help you considerably. Finally, the Bible must be the only book with which we agree whole-heartedly.

2) In light of point 1, point 2 begins will a clause about the intent of a recommendation: with recommending the following 2 books, I am not endorsing every point of theology/teaching there within. Please read these books critically and allow Scripture to have the final word.

Supporting Complementarianism

Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: Piper and Grudem

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-7271446-9127926?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Recovering+Biblical+Manhood+and+Womanhood&x=0&y=0

Supporting Egalitarianism

Women Leaders and the Church: Linda Belleville

http://www.amazon.com/Women-Leaders-Church-Crucial-Questions/dp/080105351X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207599920&sr=8-1[/url]
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Pastor Tyler

JenniferFarmer · Joined: 05 Mar 2008 Posts: 19 Location: Raleigh, NC

I seriously thought it was a great sermon. My husband and I talked for a long time about God's roles for us in marriage versus our roles as godly folks in the world. It was very enlightening to remember that this passage was meant to be held in the context of marriage.

The way we understand it (and as was discussed in our homegroup) is that as a woman you don't 'submit' to every single man on earth. Specific men (your husband, elders, etc) have earned that place in your life...but joe-schmoe has not earned that right and therefore as a woman you don't submit to him just because he is a man. Did I explain that right? :)
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Peace, Hope & Love ~ Jennifer Farmer

kylemckay · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:22 am Post subject:

That was one thing our HG talked about, because some versions say "wife" and some say "woman". Tyler obviously referenced it more as the "wife" translation and since he knows more Greek than I do, I'll trust him on that.

Another thing is that, I understand and appreciate the insight Tyler gave regarding the context of the city of Corinth and how only prostitutes would be in public with their head uncovered.

But I did think the admonition of Paul "For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God" seems to speak of this uncovering of the head as being directly related to being in the image and glory of God, with no cultural reference. Though he may mean that being in the image and glory of God entails abiding by cultural etiquette. Though it still seems strange there because weren't Jewish men supposed to wear a type of head covering? I guess there were more Gentiles there.

Anyways, I appreciated that Vintage didn't skip over this. I grew up in a church where most (not all) of the women do wear a type of head covering during church and even outside of church if it is a worship setting. And these aren't crazy people either, but pretty normal folks who just take this passage more literally.

I myself haven't decided what I believe the passage to mean for us today as Christians in terms of whether women should wear a head covering and men should not. But it does seem to me that if one doesn't feel 100% sure that it was a culturally and periodically specific instruction, then the safe thing to do would be to abide by what Paul instructs?

To put it in other words, I know for sure that it would be ok for me (a guy) to have my head uncovered while praying. But I don't know for sure that it would be ok to have my head covered while praying. So I should just make sure it is uncovered. Does that make sense? Anyone? Bueller?

Aside: I agree with Tyler that the passage is ultimately about authority and how we can serve one another under God's instruction for our roles. I'm not trying to make it predominantly about what men and women put on their heads.

amyc · Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Raleigh, NC

Kyle, I think you can pray with a hat on, since in today's society it is not a symbol of effeminacy, and doesn't make you any less a reflection of God's glory or image. Unless maybe it has offensive graphics on it?

This is my first study based on Tyler's Studying Scripture talk, and I have to say it was both exhausting and invigorating. I can't imagine how much meat I've been missing!

I'm leading home group tonight on this verse, and thought I'd post the discussion questions I came up with here, not only to get feedback on where I've gone wrong or right, but also because I'm not sure my conclusions in Q6 are valid (and I'll present them to my home group in that way).

1) Why does Paul address this issue specifically?
+ Corinthians had asked him because it was something there was division over in the church

2) If we were to study the Greek origin of some words used in the passage, which would you pull out? (go through the ones i did look closely at: head, man, woman, glory, authority)

3) Is verse 2 sarcastic? Why does Paul start the letter this way?

4) What is remarkable about verse 4 & 5 in the context of Corinthian culture at that time (specifically pertaining to society’s perceived value & intelligence of a woman)?

5) Looking at Genesis 6:1-2 and 24:65 , what do we learn about the symbolism of the head covering?

6) God did not give specific instructions about head coverings, so why does Paul make this judgment call so conservatively? What would have been the consequence if he allowed it to remain gray area?
+ confusion of nonChristians
+ temptation of Christian brothers
What does this teach us about how we should react as our culture begins to defy convention or tradition? What are some examples of societal standards that we’re beginning to abandon? Have these been counterproductive to nonChristians finding Christ and Christians following well (or, do they make it easier or harder to avoid sin)?

7) What are Paul’s two main points about the relationship between man & woman (husband & wife)?
+ See verses 3, 8, & 9 for one point, and verses 11-12 for the other.
+ point one: the subordination / submission of woman to man
Man’s role = represent God, show what he is like
Woman’s role = support the excellence of husband
Proverbs 31 (how does it jive with what we just read)
+ point two: essential partnership / two-way subordination
What is the result in a marriage where both main points are happening?
+ fruitful
+ enjoyable
+ know God more fully

8) Why does Paul throw in verse 16 at the end? It seems disconnected?
+ to convict the argumentative members of the church (never appropriate)
+ supports Vintage's practice of holding some beliefs tight and agreeing to disagree about others

9) How does this scripture change how we live in our marriages or as we commit ourselves to community with men and women? How we volunteer alongside and under the direction of men and women?

Interlinear study
kephale, head: everywhere else in the letters to the Corinthians, kephale is used to mean the physical body part.
1 Corinthians 12:21
Ephesians 5:22-24

aner, man: most often Paul uses it to mean husband… married man

gune, woman: most often Paul uses it to mean wife… married woman

doxa, glory: given definitions include approval, brightness, honor, & majesties. What does it mean in this context? Paul tended to use it in both ways.

exousia, authority: given definitions include right, liberty, power, and dominion. Again, which definition is meant in this text?
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amy c.

Pastor Tyler · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 93 Location: Downtown Raleigh

I am praying my brains out in hopes that our church will begin to study Scripture like Amy is. If this happens, I believe God will do amazing things in our church. We will pray more. We will repent more. We will become humble. We will love Jesus with our whole lives. I mean, we might really be messed up here. Amy, thank you!!!
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Pastor Tyler

Sharon Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 28

kudos to you, amy. thanks for sharing it. i'm looking forward to listening to the podcast of this soon as we were out of town this weekend & missed it. i have no doubts i'll get plenty out of it.

tyler, i tried to PM you, but apparently PMs are disabled on this board. at any rate, just wanted to let you know that if you (or anybody) wants to avoid blowing out the board sides (meaning people have to horizontally scroll), you can do this with your super-long links:

(url=*insert url here*) TEXT OF WHAT YOU'D CALL IT, I.E. BOOK TITLE(/url)

except you will use brackets in place of the parentheses i've used above. so your link above would look like this:

Redeemer Sermon Store

give it a whirl.
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well-behaved women rarely make history.

Eric Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 56

kylemckay · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject:

Word, thanks for the response Eric. I get what you're saying about God not having an innate disapproval of men having their head covered. That's something I'd kind of known I guess but never thought about in that way.

Thanks man.