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Luke Wisley
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Raleigh, NC
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 Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:16 pm Post subject: Biblical Languages |
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Eric,
Very good insight when approaching the biblical languages. It is important to understand that words have a range of meaning when it comes to interpreting them (e.g. hebrew-na'ar). It is our job (as the interpreter) then to determine based on the context of the passage to determine which definition fits the context best. Your example is very helpful about reading through previous passages and allowing previous uses of the word to help interpret the current use. I would like to add that this is especially helpful to look for the uses by the same author. It's important in interpreting to see how he in particular uses the word. Thanks again Eric. |
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Eric Butler
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Biblical Languages |
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| Luke Wisley wrote: | | I would like to add that this is especially helpful to look for the uses by the same author. It's important in interpreting to see how he in particular uses the word. |
Very much agreed. I have found, also, that uses sometimes drift across time. This can be a bit confusing with Paul, since he's one author writing multiple works at different times. For instance, I'm fairly sure Paul exists at the transition between informal title in church hierarchy (pretty much everyone is a "servant of the gospel") and more formal ones in a more precise hierarchy (by the later letters diakonos appears to apply only to a small group, separate from apostles, episkopos, and presbuterous). |
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Pastor Tyler
Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 93
Location: Downtown Raleigh
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:44 am Post subject: |
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Luke...I listed the Mark passage only in the context of how snake handlers do reverse hermeneutics and read things into the text that are clearly not there. We can certainly have a good conversation about their authenticity but I wanted to clarify why I sited them. Thanks...
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Pastor Tyler |
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JenniferFarmer
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 19
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I just got a chance to listen to the podcast of this owner's night and I would just like to say that I am totally blown away.
No one has ever taught me to read & understand the Bible like that. Usually folks have said "Just read the Bible and look stuff up you don't understand" which generally left me feeling incredibly lost. --- Yes, I was one of those folks with the Bible with the notes in the margin that would look at a passage, look at the notes and go "Oh, thats nice."
Well not anymore. I just wanted to say that from now on I am going to be so much more diligent in studying what The Word actually has to say to me. I can't tell you how I feel empowerd in HIM right now. Thanks Tyler. :D
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Peace, Hope & Love ~ Jennifer Farmer |
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amyc
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: studylight.org |
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A couple of questions about using the interlinear bible on studylight.org:
1. How do you decide whether to use "KJV Strong's version" or "NAS Strong's version" ? Or is that really the same discussion as using different translations and we should really just look at both?
2. Once you've clicked on a hebrew/greek word to see the pop-up definition, how do you decide which one was meant for that specific passage? Or do you consider them all?
3. What is this section at the bottom of the pop-up?
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amy c. |
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Eric Butler
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:17 am Post subject: Re: studylight.org |
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| amyc wrote: | A couple of questions about using the interlinear bible on studylight.org:
1. How do you decide whether to use "KJV Strong's version" or "NAS Strong's version" ? Or is that really the same discussion as using different translations and we should really just look at both? |
I use neither, since I think they are both hack jobs that scanned the translations and asked "what word was this translated to?" and then used it. I look at how the words are used in the passages listed and attempt to get my own sense of it.
| amyc wrote: | | 2. Once you've clicked on a hebrew/greek word to see the pop-up definition, how do you decide which one was meant for that specific passage? Or do you consider them all? |
Odds are there's only one real definition, which exists between English words. For instance, in the screen shot provided we see a word defined as "dignity, glory, glorious, honor, praise, worship". The original word is, almost certainly, a concept something like "the act or object of awe and worship". Someone with this property would have dignity (which Merriam Webster's ties into honor by calling it "the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed"), and this state could also be termed "glory". Verbal recognition of this state could be termed "praise" or "worship". So rather than saying, "Which English word is best?" I prefer to try and think what the concept might be, and apply the concept, not any specific definition of the concept, to the text.
| amyc wrote: | 3. What is this section at the bottom of the pop-up?
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Word count, I think. For instance, "glory, 155" in KJV means that this word was translated as "glory" 155 times in the KJV. |
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amyc
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:37 am Post subject: studylight.org |
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thanks Eric... but (forgive my ignorance) I still don't understand, then, how to use the BHS or Nestle_Aland Greek dictionaries along with my very own ESV Bible. Do I just look up the words as they appear in my text?
For example, 1 Cor 11:3's use of "head." Would I just search the English word "head"? How do I know the Greek word it returns ("kefalh") is the one that was translated to "head" in my ESV? I thought that, although my ESV translation uses the English word "head" many times throughout the whole Bible, it doesn't mean that "kefalh" would have been used each of those times. Does that make sense? Or does "head" always come from "kefalh," every time I see it in my ESV?
Which is why I thought I needed to use the interlinear bible so that I could specify that I wanted the 1 Cor 11:3 "head" (the leader/source of something) and not the Genesis 3:15 "head" (the physical object on top of your neck).
Or... maybe I just answered my own question. That's what you meant by
| Quote: | | I prefer to try and think what the concept might be, and apply the concept, not any specific definition of the concept, to the text. |
Right?
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amy c. |
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bredelings
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Raleigh
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: Re: studylight.org |
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Hi Amy!
| Quote: | | 1. How do you decide whether to use "KJV Strong's version" or "NAS Strong's version" ? Or is that really the same discussion as using different translations and we should really just look at both? |
Its really the same discussion as using different translations - e.g. Hebrew or Greek compared to which English version?
Also check out these other interlinear bible sites:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=1&verse=1&version=KJV#1
(i) This more clearly shows the correspondence between Greek and English words, but note that it is using the [b]English[b/] word order, which is different from the Greek word order (if you care - I care :).
(ii) Also note that two version of each Greek word are given. The first one, using Greek letters, is just the stem or root word. The second one, with English letters, is the real word. For example, for the English word "was" has the stem "eimi" (in Greek letters) meaning "to be", but the actually word used in the original text is "en" (which is a past tense of eimi).
(iii) Below that table is the Greek version of the Original text on a little scroll, which has the Greek words in the order used by the apostle John.
Also check out this super-cool interlinear bible resource:
http://dev.bible.org/interlinear/grk2net/detail.php?id=26046
To use this, go net.bible.org, then type in a single verse, and then select "ITL draft". This version shows the actual Hebrew/Greek words and also shows how the word order is different in both languages.
| Quote: | | 3. What is this section at the bottom of the pop-up? |
This shows how many times this word is translated as different English words in the two different translations. So, for example, of the 167 occurrences of the word you looked at, 155 of them are translated as "glory" by the NASB. But, twice it is translated as "approval".
| Quote: | | 2. Once you've clicked on a hebrew/greek word to see the pop-up definition, how do you decide which one was meant for that specific passage? Or do you consider them all? |
It is almost never the case that ALL meanings of the word are being used in one specific instance. This would never work in English, either. This is why the Amplified Bible is misleading. (Edit: As Eric said, all the different words under "translated words" are often relevant, because they are slightly different instances of the same concept. However, all the different entries for the same words are not always in view - for example a "key point" and a "key" that opens the door are unrelated. But, sometimes the dictionary authors give too many separate definitions for what are really different APPLICATIONS of the same underly concept, as Eric said.)
So, then, how do you determine which one is in view? Unfortunately, this is actually a more difficult question. Practice helps... but experts (e.g. commentaries and those who can actually read Greek/Hebrew) also help a lot!
(i) The word count image that you mentioned in your third question can help by showing how often the word takes each kind of meaning. BUT...
(ii) Usually, you can get a pretty good idea by looking at how the word is used in examples, as Eric mentioned above. So, if you write down the Strongs number, and then go to the "Lexicon" tool, and type in the Strongs number, you will get a definition, and also a list of examples of how the word is used in context: (Strongs 746 = arche / beginnnng)
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=746
If you go down to the bottom of the page just above this sentence, and click on "John", then you will see the 8 verses from the gospel of John that use the Greek word "arche". The English word that corresponds to "arche" is highlighted in each verse.
(iii) For Hebrew verbs especially, the tense/form of the word matters. is this the "piel" form, or the "qal" form? In the BlueLetterBible interlinear, sometimes the form of the word is mentioned if you click on "tense". This can help you now which section of the dictionary entry is more relevant.
(iv) The NET bible (net.bible.org) online has a LOT of very useful translation footnotes! Just click on the footnote number next to your word, if there is one.
Last edited by bredelings on Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bredelings
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Raleigh
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: Re: studylight.org |
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| amyc wrote: | | Which is why I thought I needed to use the interlinear bible so that I could specify that I wanted the 1 Cor 11:3 "head" (the leader/source of something) and not the Genesis 3:15 "head" (the physical object on top of your neck). |
1. Yeah! So, you found that the Greek word behind the ESV "head" is "kephale" in 1 Cor 11:3. This has Strongs number 2776, so you can find the New Testament verses that contain it using this link:
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2776
2. Then you can look at them to see if the "leader" or the "source" view, or another view makes more sense.
[EDIT: remove stuff that would be more appropriate for a different thread.]
5. Finally, in order to find the range of meaning for kephale you may need to consider the Septuagint - the Greek translation of the Old Testament. This is because the New Testament might not contain enough cases where "head" is used metaphorically, and doesn't just mean head.
Q: Does anybody know how to search the Septuagint online?
Last edited by bredelings on Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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amyc
Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 7
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:00 am Post subject: |
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Ohhhhhhhhhhh
so searching by the strong's number is the real gem here... lets you see how that author tends to use the word, and provides more context to help determine meaning.
very helpful. thanks to you both.
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amy c. |
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Eric Butler
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| amyc wrote: | Ohhhhhhhhhhh
so searching by the strong's number is the real gem here... lets you see how that author tends to use the word, and provides more context to help determine meaning.
very helpful. thanks to you both. |
Exactly. This can all be done on studylight, if you want to keep your sources simple. For instance, a search I did some time back:
First, I wanted to know what Jesus was quoting when he said the Temple was "a den of thieves". So (repeating my process) I open studylight's main page, and type "thieves" into the search bar that's front and center. I didn't get the passage, so I tried "robbers", and see that Jeremiah 7:11 reads "Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen it," declares the LORD." That looks like the sort of thing that would crop up in the minds of Jesus' listeners.
So I click on the underlined "Hebrew" at the upper left corner of the passage. I get the English words, some underlined, and below it the Hebrew (which shows up in Hebrew, since I'm fancy-shmancy and downloaded the fonts). "Robbers" is underlined, meaning that I can click on that to get to the lexicon for that word in Hebrew. I've learned that opening the link in a new tab actually gets you more information on a bigger page, so I'll do that.
This page tells me the Hebrew word used here in Jeremiah, and translated as "robbers" is Strong's number 6530, and is pronounced "peer-eets'" and all the usual. More usefully, under the section for "Definition" and "Translated Words" is a section called "Verse Count" with a column for the KJV and a column for the NAS (really these columns represent the Textus Receptus and the conglomerate text the NAS has chosen to use - but whatever). This is the useful section, because rather than search by Strong's number to find all uses I can just click on any of the books listed in this section. For instance, the NAS column reads "Ezekiel 2" on the fourth line. So word #6530 appears twice in Ezekiel. If I click on "Ezekiel" I get a standard verse display, with my word and definition at the top, and the two verses it appears in in Ezekiel below. The English translation of #6530 appears in gray, telling me that in Ezekiel 7:22 is is translated "robbers", but in 18:10 as "violent". For additional context I could click on those verses and bring them up in the chapter. (Which I did, the first time through, to understand in what way the subject was violent in 18:10, and whether this was related to robbery.)
Basically, this lets me do a Strong's word search in a few short steps - I don't need to find the word, then the number, then do a search on the number. I can find the word and access all uses in the Bible immediately. One note of caution, though: the word-recognition algorithm on studylight is not great, and will sometimes turn words gray (indicating that they are translations of the word you are looking up) incorrectly. It's normally fairly obvious, since they will have no relation to any other use of the word, and the real translation will also be gray. |
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bredelings
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Raleigh
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| amyc wrote: | Ohhhhhhhhhhh
so searching by the strong's number is the real gem here... lets you see how that author tends to use the word, and provides more context to help determine meaning.
very helpful. thanks to you both. |
Yes - and you're welcome :-)
I suppose it is possible that long answers should wait until it is clear what the question is :P |
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