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Vintage21 Church
downtown Raleigh, NC
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Pastor Tyler
Joined: 08 Feb 2008
Posts: 93
Location: Downtown Raleigh
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 Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: Freedom --I'm dying here & need some |
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This Sunday --July 20th, my 12th anniversary--we will be studying John 8:31-38. The passage is primarily about freedom. As Americans, we are self-professing experts on all things FREE. So:
What is freedom?
What marks a free person?
What are some things that might hinder our freedom?
Finally, how might we spread this freedom that Jesus speaks of in v. 36?
Looking forward to hearing from you...
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Rob Davis
Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 90
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: Freedom --I'm dying here & need some |
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| Pastor Tyler wrote: | | What is freedom? |
I think this is such a hard thing for us to understand because our country has taken ownership of this word to mean something antithetical to the kind of freedom described in the Bible. We naturally equate freedom with autonomy, when autonomy was what Adam and Eve wanted and we all want - which is idolatry.
(It's also interesting to study the history of how we became "free" from Europe while enslaving the native peoples who were here for thousands of years before us.)
We also (rightly so) have a negative understanding toward the language of slavery. But, slavery in the Bible is about commitment/devotion/allegiance. Back to autonomy, we're never free in that way. We're either slaves to sin or we're slaves to righteousness (Romans 6) - slaves of Jesus or some other man-made god.
So, it seems we need to constantly contrast our American understanding of freedom with that of the Bible's.
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robyn.vdb
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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warning: i have lots of questions about freedom...
my own depravity and sinful nature is what hinders my freedom the most. within that there are more specific things, those that i struggle with on a daily basis. this passage is one that i've always wrestled with, because very few times have i really experienced the true freedom Christ offers.
so, to ask a question about your question, how do we obtain the freedom Christ speaks of in v. 36? i'm not sure that i could genuinely spread something that i haven't experienced. i believe it exists, sure, but i'd feel like a phony sales person.
rob's right- our view of freedom is skewed based on our culture. so if we're trying to delve into culture as far as possible and still be true to scripture, what does that look like? |
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Rob Davis
Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 90
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| robyn.vdb wrote: | | so, to ask a question about your question, how do we obtain the freedom Christ speaks of in v. 36? i'm not sure that i could genuinely spread something that i haven't experienced. i believe it exists, sure, but i'd feel like a phony sales person. |
I think Paul's letter to the Galatians has some relevance here. There's a lot of debate about what Paul is really railing against, but there are a few remarks which I think hint at it:
4:8-9 - Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
There's talk in the letter of falling back into "slavery," which Paul points out as the "principles of the world." So, what he's begging is that the followers of Jesus would have no other god than Jesus - that their lives would be defined by Him. Jesus must be our identity.
5:1 - For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
I think Paul describes what this freedom looks like here:
5:22-23, 25 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law... If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
So, true freedom is "living" and "walking" by the Spirit. He describes what our lives will look like when that is the case. So, in reality, our "freedom" is not the autonomy I spoke of earlier, but rather living within the "boundaries" of God's protection. True freedom is living in harmony with God.
Earlier on he gives the warning:
5:13 - For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
So, he's contrasting a type of "freedom" that really isn't freedom at all, but rather is opposed to love of God and neighbor. True freedom is in keeping in step with the Spirit. If we want to know what freedom looks like, we need to look at Jesus. We see that He lived by the Spirit, and He submitted to the Father.
I don't know if this helps at all, but this is where my head went with this idea...
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bredelings
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Raleigh
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Hi everyone,
As a preliminary comment, do you think that slavery might be referring to slavery in Egypt? And, might the Babylonian exile be thought of in terms of a second Egyptian slavery, caused by the people's sin? In that case, Jesus would be saying that the Israelites are basically in slavery to sin, and need to be rescued, as by Moses, and he is the rescuer.
In light of this (no pun intended), the comment "We are children of Abraham and have never been enslaved to everyone" seems oddly, almost pointedly, obtuse (Nehemiah 9). ?
More later...
-BenRI |
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