Vintage21 Church

Will McMillian · Joined: 15 Apr 2008 Posts: 2

So.... why did you get rid of the reflection times during the Sunday Service again?

Not that I'm against getting rid of it, per se, but I did really enjoy the time to sit there and digest the sermon for that Sunday.

I remember Tyler saying something about proper worship, but I'm not sure what exactly he was talking about.

Pastor Tyler · Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 80 Location: Downtown Raleigh

That is a great question and we are working on a great answer! Reflection has been something that I enjoyed and looked forward to but we feel like our worship and our response to God's Word is inappropriate. I know that is a strong statement so, we want to take a day to answer this questions. Please know, the Elders prayed over this decision for several months before we moved on it. Also, Matt Stevens is the director of the service and responsible for all the aspects of it so he will be answering this post. Finally, Owner's Night will provide a great forum for anyone to ask questions to us face to face. Thanks...
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Pastor Tyler

Pastor Matt · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 33 Location: Raleigh, NC

Will, thanks for posting your question.

Reflection time has been a part of the Vintage21 service for the 5+ years we’ve been around. The intent was that people would reflect on the message, and allow God to speak into their hearts. Reflection Time achieved this for many years, and still does in some lives.

The decision to remove a time of reflection was based on a larger issue in our church, one that the Elders noticed growing for several months, even years: We have a worship issue at Vintage21 on Sunday mornings. I used to think perhaps we were just a bunch of reflective people, or that we were worshiping God fully, but it was just not noticeable. However, the more I examined myself, and humbly watched the congregation, it was clear there was more to it. It’s been on my heart, I emailed the band just this past week.
I've been convicted over and over that our church does not honor God with their praise. This goes beyond the folks in the crowd who don't love singing, or who are going through a rough time and struggling to even come to church. It goes beyond the number of new people we have, or new songs we do. This has been frustrating, and I've prayed about it, and also sought to examine myself as the Worship Leader. There were several things revealed in this-
1. I have tons of things going through my brain- the lyrics, the guitar in my hand, the pedals in front of me, the rest of the band, the congregation, preparing for the next verse or song- all the while trying to listen to the Holy Spirit.
2. My personal background in praise is traditional Presbyterian. Hymn open, eyes down, hands by your side. don’t sing to loud unless you’re the older woman with over-the-top, unceasing vibrato.
3. I care what others think. Sometimes this is good, as I am seeking to include doubters and seekers and not isolate them. Many times it's bad- i'm worried what others will think of me, that i’m weird, not cool, a bad worship leader, etc.

However, beyond all of these excuses, what I've realized is that in part, i'm worried, scared, or just unable to praise God. And no matter what I say, people will emulate what comes from the stage. To doubters and seekers, praising God looks like what they see followers of Christ doing. Daunting, huh? Now, I love Jesus, and I praise Him. And I also don't think the worship leader has to be a hyper and emotional guy flailing about. However, I have held back, and I'm praying that God would work in me to take away fear and pride, and worship Him with abandon. I want not for people to think I'm cool, but for people to see what it looks like to praise God. Any gift or calling He's given me is not for me, but to bless the church.
So, from this point on, I am taking steps of faith as a worship leader. This may mean I move a bit more. Or lift my hands, or stop playing and clap, or dance, or fall on my knees. I don't know- it's not something I'm trying to plan out. I'm only trying to minimize distractions, listen to the Holy Spirit, and yield to His voice. Please pray for me in this. I need you to pray for me in this.

So I’m starting with myself, and second, the musicians who are also called to lead worship. Pray for them as well- we’re all working on this. We're working harder during the week on the music so we can remove music stands, as a first step to minimize distractions.

Next, I’m also asking that each follower of Christ in the congregation examine their hearts, both now and on Sunday mornings. We’ll address this in upcoming months, but the question to ask is “Lord, am I responding appropriately to you in worship?”
I will not tell each individual that you must raise your hands, or you must clap. When we begin prescribing a formula, our praise becomes rote and meaningless. Instead, pray. Ask the Holy Spirit to lead you in worship of Him. Study scripture and what it looks like for God’s people to praise Him – Nehemiah 8, Psalm 95, 96, 98, Romans 12:1. And step out in faith. Praise to God is a wholehearted, whole-bodied sacrifice. While each of you may argue that your whole heart is in it, my response is that it should not be a problem to ask God to examine your heart then. As David writes in Psalm 139: 23-24 “Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! And see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting!”

Getting back to Reflection Time. We noticed over time that in Reflection time the congregation becomes introspective and reflective, which made our time of response difficult. I have felt this for a long time- the first song after reflection often has everyone trying to turn their attention back to God, getting out of the time of introspection and into a time of response. Upon hearing the word of God, we should respond. Response in worship is when we pour out- it’s an outward action, and not an inward introspection. So we are seeking to respond appropriately, and that comes in three ways mainly- worshiping together as the body, commemorating the death and resurrection, and obediently sacrificing through our tithes and offerings. When we are alone later in the day, or during the week, is the time for us to sit with God in introspection. When we gather as the body, it is a time of honoring God by responding.

This decision was not easy, and we’ve talked about it for several months. Change is not easy, but I am excited for the changes God is bringing about in Vintage21 Church, and for how he is constantly and persistently changing us to reflect Him more.

Great question, Will. If you or anyone else has any more thoughts on this, or if any part of this post was unclear, please let me know- I’d be happy to clarify.
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Matt Stevens
Worship Pastor
Vintage21 Church

Elliot Acosta · Joined: 22 Feb 2008 Posts: 6 Location: Raleigh

Thanks for the post Matt. I too was kinda disappointed too hear that Reflection time was being phased out but definitely understand the decision.

Is it possible to get the questions posted on the web? I find them helpful as I go out during the week reflecting on the message.

Pastor Nate · Joined: 25 Jan 2008 Posts: 18 Location: Raleigh, NC

Pastor Matt

Very well said. Thanks for leading us in this.

Pastor Matt · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 33 Location: Raleigh, NC

Elliot,

Those questions were written by Pastor Tyler each week, specifically from the sermon. Because there is not a time of reflection, it would be helpful for him not to spend time writing them. We hope to find someone else to write questions that can be posted along with the sermon online, someone who has sat in the sermon, taken notes, and is able to to glean the themes and specific questions.
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Matt Stevens
Worship Pastor
Vintage21 Church

Sharon Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 21

matt - thanks for the thoughtful reply on this particular question.

i gotta admit that i loved the transition from the sermon directly into musical worship. for me, the reflection time had become more of a distraction than any time to seriously consider the message. usually i'd read the questions & make note of them to review later.

thanks for all you & the praise bands do to facilitate worship on sunday mornings. i've served in many a praise team & it's not an easy task. at times the pressure of it as a "job" can seem overwhelming rather than it being an outward pouring of one's own worship.

i think God is doing some powerful things & i pray that He'll bless our time in coming to learn more about Him & worship Him. for me, i found that taking communion in the midst of worship & while listening to my brothers & sisters praising Him in song was really a beautiful experience. i look forward to more of it.
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well-behaved women rarely make history.

bredelings · Joined: 18 Mar 2008 Posts: 20 Location: Raleigh

For me, the reflection time served as a time to fully enter into communion. This has always been an important part of communion in the churches that I've been in, along with the words of institution (of which here is one version):

Pastor Matt · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 33 Location: Raleigh, NC

Good points, Ben, and that was the upside of the Reflection time. For many, it was a time of prayer, reflection on what Christ has done on our behalf, and a time in which people continued listening to God, as they had been listening during the sermon.
For others, and arguably the majority of our church, it steered into a time of self-reflection instead of an outpouring of thanks and praise. Or it was just a break in the service, allowing some to use the restroom or talk to friends. It saddened me to often see people catching up with one another in the aisles, or approach me with a question about something totally unrelated to the worship of Christ, which we should have been focused on.

I am not advocating taking the reflective aspect out of communion. As we take communion, it is a time to reflect upon what Christ has done, and that reflection is a part of worship. That was the original intent- reflect upon what Christ has done during the five minute reflection time, and then respond. At it's best, that's what happened.

Again, great point, Ben- our minds and hearts reflecting on the work of Christ is a part of our worship. I pray that it continues.
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Matt Stevens
Worship Pastor
Vintage21 Church

bredelings · Joined: 18 Mar 2008 Posts: 20 Location: Raleigh

Hey Matt,

Thanks for listening (always) and for the further clarification. I think I understand better where you all are coming from on this. In an attempt to promote a friendly and low-pressure atmosphere for seekers and doubters, it seems to be that sometimes the reflection time is treated by followers more like an intermission, or a commercial break. (I've done this on occasion.) Am I understanding you correctly? If so, then perhaps we will eventually get to a point as a church where taking reflection time in the service will really promote listening and contemplation in the way it was intended. (And perhaps not.)

I'm still processing your ideas on what a proper "response" looks like.

-BenRI

Pastor Matt · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 33 Location: Raleigh, NC

Ben,
Yes, that's what we've seen, sadly. It would be great to have people truly lost in prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit during that time.

This next part is addressed to the basic issue, Ben- I just figure it's easier to continue writing than to post again!
I think, also, as mentioned in the original reply to Will's question, that there is a larger issue in our church- a wrong view of worship, a lack of response to who God is and what He has done. It seemed that many people value reflection time more than worship- that is, they selfishly long to just reflect and receive rather than sacrifice and respond. Note that both are valuable and good, but I think we are falling short in the sacrifice and respond aspect of worship.
Not even mentioning what Christ does in our lives during the week, just on Sunday mornings we sing songs that contain scripture, accurately depict the person of Christ, His attributes and work. We study scripture together, the literal words of God, and ask the Holy Spirit to move, leading, guiding and convicting us all.
This should overwhelm us with an awareness of the grace and holiness of God, and cause us to respond in awe, deep thanks, and great joy.

That we do not is a travesty.

Ben, I realize this is more than you asked for! But I continually am convicted, personally and for our church body, of what we're missing out on, and that we rob God of what is His- all the praise.
_________________
Matt Stevens
Worship Pastor
Vintage21 Church

Rob Davis · Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 85 Location: Raleigh, NC

Personal reflection is not a bad thing - "Let a person examine himself" ( 1 Cor. 11:28 ). Along with what has already been said, another layer to add onto any element of corporate worship is its ultimate effect of moving each of us outward, into the world to which we've been sent.

v. 31-32 - But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

If we're living like the world, with no respect in this sense for what the act of remembering points to, then we are condemned/judged with the world who we are supposed to be distinct from and sent to. Our witness is perverted.

So, the question is not, "What element will assist me in contemplating myself?" but rather, "How am I responding to the gospel, in word and deed, for the sake of the world?"
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http://v21missionality.wordpress.com

Eric Butler · Joined: 09 Feb 2008 Posts: 49

I have to say that, while I fully agree with Ben in regards to communion, I tended to find that reflection was the awkward time in which I waited for enough people to head up to communion so that I could do so without everyone staring at me. All my real reflection and preparation happened in line.

Paige Puckett · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 5 Location: Raleigh, NC

so matt... just some words of encouragement. i have seen you beginning to worship with more wreckless abandon AND if i were doing the same, i would not have noticed. i remember commenting to you awhile back about closing your eyes during the song and how initially i was skeptical but had seen your heart growing and seen sincerety from the stage. for some reason i can't shake the line from "about a boy" that hugh grant makes about how awful it is when they close their eyes while singing. it's that attitude and fear of not being cool that i believe holds people like myself back... which is completely ridiculous b/c i'lve known i wasn't cool for a very long time now.

i too grew up presbyterian and i think frozen chosen adequately decribes me in worship. sad as it is to say, havign a baby to bounce around on my shoulder has enabled me to begin swaying (gasp!). it breaks my heart that after so many years of feeling a heart tug to just bust out and raise my hands or stomp my feet, i have learned to silence that tug because of embarassment of my own akwardness. i so long for my child and future children to be able to dance like david danced (perhaps with more clothes on).

i also realize that much of my lack in sunday worship is found in my self-awareness. i have not been confessing my brokeness to god beforehand, and then get hit by it in the service. if i lived in a state of prayer and confession to god, i would come with a hunger and thirst for righteousness, already knowing his forgiveness and thus free to simply enjoy his grace and wholeness. sunday should not be the time of the week where i come to church with the hopes of being clensed, but i should come with a heart to proclaim his forgiveness. not saying the church isn't for the broken. we are all broken and constantly needing forgiveness.

tara · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 3

I just posted a whole diddy on my thoughts about reflection time on the worship page--didn't realize all the buzz was here!

thanks for the insight into the change, Matt. My original thoughts are still that I will miss this time and that I do, in fact, like to reflect and be introspective while the message is fresh on my mind. But I do understand and respect your thought and decision about this issue. I'll be praying that I may be able to accept and embrace this change.

thanks!